Posts by Faithful Witness

25

Had a reply for job...

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

.

got a cool job, surgery and emergency medicine in a nice holiday town, super happy :d. .

Faithful Witness

Awesome! That looks like a beautiful city. Congratulations!

51

"This Generation" at the meeting today

by Batman89 in

it was really quite amusing 2day at the meeting when we got to the "this generation will not pass away" subheading in the wt.

the conductor spent very little time on the section and the comments that were given didnt at all make sense really.

you can tell its not understood by the majority of the friendsand will go over there heads, i was trying not to laugh lol.

Faithful Witness

If they are teaching 3 generations now, why not 4 or 5, when they are still alive 50 years from now?

The JW's I talk to say, "I can't tell you if it will be tomorrow, next Tuesday, or next year..."

To which I always add, "Or 133 years from now!"

7

My non-JW sister & her observations and updates from visiting JW family

by Faithful Witness in

my non-jw, never been interested in even tralking about it, always avoid the topic of jw issues, came for an overnight visit this weekend.

the kids all had a blast.

she updated me with a few observations:.

Listener: The last 2 times she visited us, she talked about how it had been "SO LONG!" since she had been out in service. I reminded her to count her time at our house, and to bring a few magazines next time.

DD: JW families really ARE a wreck. Ever since they presented us with that little book, "Secrets of Family Happiness," I have noticed that more and more... It does not look like a loving group to me!

They all just sit around patting each other on the back, for being chosen by Jehovah to work harder. The JWs I meet, really do come across as much more "holier than thou," than even my most conservative, evangelical Christian friends.

7

My non-JW sister & her observations and updates from visiting JW family

by Faithful Witness in

my non-jw, never been interested in even tralking about it, always avoid the topic of jw issues, came for an overnight visit this weekend.

the kids all had a blast.

she updated me with a few observations:.

Faithful Witness

I got a text from her today, telling me she would be postponing her visit again. I'm not sure when she will come and visit, but it will be at least 2 weeks more.

skeeter: It's not really that I want approval from my parents, although it would be nice if my kids got a chance to have a relationship with their grandparents. My parents are new JW converts, and although my dad has pretty much turned into a zombie, my mother has made some definite statements of remorse, specifically when speaking about her baptism. Every time she visits me, she has at least one open comment that is clearly full of doubt and fear.

My house is a safe place for my mom, and she knows I will not tell on her if she has doubts about the instructions being administered by this bizarre cult. One of her statements, when she first heard my sister (and I) were studying with the JW's (several years ago), was how they "divide families." Now, she is a party to that very statistic. My sister has stopped speaking to me, simply because I decided not to join. (I was never a JW, but I know too much). This action by my sister is very troublesome to my mother.

I have compassion and concern for all JW people who are trapped. My mother is among them, but both geographic distance and now religious differences are pulling her farther and farther away from me. I'm not taking it personally. This battle is not about me, but I do feel that I am being put in this position for a reason. I will not give up on my mother, even if she does end up dying as a JW. Until that day, she will know that I am here for her with unconditional love.

(as of right now, she is still a "JW freak" in the making... her "new personality" is in a constant battle with her real one, especially around me)

Robert: Thanks for the thoughts. I think I will ask her about that when she comes next time. I now have stories to share, about my BS elderette. I can ask my mom a few questions about the end times and the definition of a generation. Typically, I keep my JW questions pretty light. I don't want to scare her away. I frustrate easily, when I see her in her cult persona. It has been so long now, since she has been around us in your natural state, that it sometimes feels like we don't really know each other.

Unlike my sister and my father, my mother and I do have a 40+ year history of what I would call a very close relationship. It has only been the last few years, that she has been drifting away. She has not mentioned anything about them selling the house, but I can definitely ask her more details about the reasoning behind that decision. Hopefully, I will talk to her soon, even if she isn't coming over this week as planned.

7

My non-JW sister & her observations and updates from visiting JW family

by Faithful Witness in

my non-jw, never been interested in even tralking about it, always avoid the topic of jw issues, came for an overnight visit this weekend.

the kids all had a blast.

she updated me with a few observations:.

Faithful Witness

My non-JW, never been interested in even tralking about it, always avoid the topic of JW issues, came for an overnight visit this weekend. The kids all had a blast.

She updated me with a few observations:

My mom is planning to retire before the end of May. She told my sister that she would have more time to spend with grandkids and help out when situations arise (my nephew broke his leg in a horrible sledding accident and is just now getting out of the wheelchair). Mom said, "Just think how much help I could have been!" My sister rolled her eyes. My mom so obviously favors the JW grandkids, it has caused some pretty hard feelings for the others. Sadly, none of them ever expect Grandma to follow through on her promises to them.

My mom told me several months ago, that she wanted to quit her job and pioneer. I'm sure that is more likely the plan. :(

My dad is apparently getting their house ready for sale. They want to move into a retirement condominium in their town. That is a very new development.

My sister overheard dad and brother in law talking about the upcoming International Convention in Detroit. BIL was saying how he was going to "check out" the venue and their hotel. Also, someone in the KH is working parking, and has promised to somehow only allow certain people to park in a preferred place. (It was my JW sister's anniversary, so grandparents are watching my nephew for the weekend... again. That poor kid has been severely damaged by the JW's. My niece (12), was sent to a JW friend's house, against her will, for the weekend...)

Anyway, none of these gossip items sounded promising to me. I'm hoping my mom is still planning to visit this next weekend. I sent an email and asked her if she is still coming, and mentioned that I'm now being treated as a Bible Student by my elderette.

I wonder if she will tell my sister, or if the fact that I am talking to JWs again, will suddenly earn me more favor. I love conditional love! (There is nothing like knowing that your mom, once your best friend and confidante, feels that it is more important to go out in much neglected field service activities, than to spend time with her grandkids).

41

I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!

by Faithful Witness in

i'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table.

my elderette ("miss k") arrived with her friend in tow.

i vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("miss w") from the times we went to the kh, but like miss k, we never really talked in depth.

Faithful Witness

Quarterback, you sound exactly like Miss K, in regards to Noah. In the discussion I had with them, we agreed ahead of time to stick with what is actually written in the bible. When they started making assumptions like yours, and asking me to draw logical conclusions, I had to stop them from manipulating the documented account.

Since there is no story of anyone asking Noah about the ark, we can't answer the question about what Noah did or did not say.

41

I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!

by Faithful Witness in

i'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table.

my elderette ("miss k") arrived with her friend in tow.

i vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("miss w") from the times we went to the kh, but like miss k, we never really talked in depth.

Faithful Witness

I should mention that she keeps trying to bait me into apostate discussions. She made a statement about how "a lot of people will say JW's keep changing their beliefs and what they believe is the truth. I'm sure you've heard people say that."

I said, "Yes, I have heard that before."

"You've probably heard that A LOT!!" getting a little excited.

"Not a LOT. Most of the world is not talking about JW's..." I replied.

Miss K: "Well, I HAVE heard it many times from people."

Me: "You're talking to a lot more people about JW's than I am!"

I am going to resist bringing in a lot of outside information about the society. I have already been provoked into making comments and revealing that I have more information than her normal bible student. I am ready for her, if she warns me again about listening to gossip or reports about the JW's.

She also claimed that even when people present her with "supposed" statements from old WT magazines, they all turn out to be misquotes, or quotes that were published in the WT from others. I was interested, because it sounded like she had actually taken the quotes and researched them herself. I did not take the bait and follow her down the rabbit trail. I kept saying, "I don't want to change the subject..."

She was relentless, and she really does have a very bad habit of interrupting and talking over me. I did not manage to complete a single thought, before one of them cut me off.

Our next meeting should be interesting, as I am going to really try to get them to let me talk. Are you here to make a speech, or do you really want to hear my questions?

41

I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!

by Faithful Witness in

i'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table.

my elderette ("miss k") arrived with her friend in tow.

i vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("miss w") from the times we went to the kh, but like miss k, we never really talked in depth.

Faithful Witness

I keep going over in my mind, the way they formulated their presentation of the need for an organization. When I told her that we had not finished covering the topic of the slave, and she said let's put it aside for now... I'm not sure I can let her get away with that.

Their only evidence that the JW's are in charge of giving food at the proper time, was that they are the only ones teaching the truth. So apparently, we would need to prove that there is something they are teaching that is not true, in order to prove they are not teaching the truth (and can not fill the role of the faithful slave).

Since she seems to have exhausted her evidence for the FDS teaching, I'm considering asking her to explain the other slaves and parables mentioned right after the faithful slave. In Matthew 24:45-51, Jesus talks about his servants. The faithful one is good and feeds people when they need it. The evil one declares that the master is not coming, and starts whipping the other slaves... WHO is that referring to?

There is the parable of the 10 virgins, followed by the parable of the talents. In this example, 3 different slaves (or servants) are mentioned. Who today, apparently represents these servants? If these are merely parables or examples, then why would the faithful vs. evil slave example be a prophecy?

Regarding the CHANGES to the truth, they discarded this as evidence of anything other than their obedience.
Miss W: "There IS a scripture that tells us the light will get brighter in the time of the end." (A scripture? I really hate cherry-picking verses... especially if you're basing an entire religion on it, and then punishing anyone who will not comply and shift their entire belief at your whim).

I told her how my mother was confused by the changes made last fall. Miss K said, "It would be better if they didn't go back and forth in the articles, talking about what we previously thought to be true, and then explaining why we have new understanding and are changing what we believe to be true. It would be much clearer, if they just told us what we know NOW to be true, and not confuse people by explaining why we are making changes. Especially for new ones, it is hard to follow, when the information is presented in the way they did." This comment was very close to what my brother in law said to me, when I was asking him about that article in July Watchtower 2013.

I asked my sister (back in the fall), what she thought of the changes. She looked blankly at me for about 20 seconds before saying, "It made sense?" (wow)

Then my brother in law said, "I wish they wouldn't spend so much time telling us what they used to believe. Just tell us what we believe today, and let's move forward." (WOW again).

The changes and false prophecies are really the reason that we did not continue our bible study, and why we decided to stop lying to the people at the KH. We could not attend meetings and pretend we were going to believe them anymore.

41

I survived a 3-hour manipulation session with 2 elderettes!

by Faithful Witness in

i'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table.

my elderette ("miss k") arrived with her friend in tow.

i vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("miss w") from the times we went to the kh, but like miss k, we never really talked in depth.

Faithful Witness

I'm not sure how else to describe this meeting at my kitchen table. My elderette ("Miss K") arrived with her friend in tow. I vaguely remember the 2nd lady ("Miss W") from the times we went to the KH, but like Miss K, we never really talked in depth. (She does look remarkably like my JW mother, and has the same sort of grumpy demeanor).

I made tea, and they talked about how much they loved hibiscus tea. The refreshments were marshmallow Easter eggs and Trefoil Girl Scout cookies on a plate. The boxes were at the end of the table.

This topic led to some interesting facts about their children, who happened to be married to each other. (Miss K's daughter is married to Miss W's son, and they have at least one common grandchild, who was being watched and needed to be picked up by a certain time - which we went WAY past). It seems to be a common JW trait, or maybe it is just Miss K... she claims to have a limited amount of time, but then talks for 2-3 times that length of time. Miss K's one daughter is taking college classes to be a CNA (certified nurse assistant), and the other works for a small city office about an hour away. She talked about how her daughter has to have her "JW personality" and her "work personality," due to the difference in situations and people.

Miss K and Miss W told me that they had both been baptized on the same day, in their 20's. They were both converts, baptized in 1972. (1975'ers!)

Our "question of the day" was the existence and identification of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave." Miss K was clearly prepared with a list of scriptures and a plan to prove the existence of an organization throughout all time. Even though she laid out her plan before she started, she peppered the conversation with JW platitudes and emotional claims about "the truth."

Miss K also seemed to be debating with herself throughout the entire "presentation." As she began, she told me to feel free to interrupt and ask question that I had... but each time I did, it opened a rabbit hole for her to dive into. We ended up spending 3 hours together, and here is what I remember.

She began with the account of Noah. We read how God told him to build the ark, and how Noah did everything that God told him to do. Then she made the comment about Noah being a great preacher, and how no one listened to him. I stopped her and asked her where it had any accounts of Noah preaching or spreading the word about the coming flood.

I referred to Genesis 6:18 "And I am establishing my covenant with you, and you must go into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you." God was specific about WHO was getting into that ark. It does not have even one example of someone rejecting Noah's message from God, not one person who had the chance to come into the ark with Noah and his family...

She had Miss W read a verse in 2 Peter, which said Noah was a preacher. Miss K: "It doesn't say Noah, the ark builder. It says Noah the preacher." We discussed how Noah must have only preached to his family. Then she asked if I ever wondered about the mothers of his daugthers in law... why didn't they come into the ark? She kept asking what it would be like to see a man building this big ark and watching the animals go inside with Noah. "Jehovah shut the door!" She kept implying that anyone who saw this would have had the chance to get into the ark. Why didn't anyone who witnessed this event, even try to go inside? She made all these leaps and assumptions about what did or did not happen, but I just kept reminding her, "but there is no account in the bible of that happening, so we don't know, do we? It says Noah did everything God told him to do, but it does not say God told him to tell people to come along. God told him to bring his family and all the animals. That's it. We can't assume anything else occured."

Ok... NEXT!!! (hahaha. I don't think I got the point on that story, so we moved along to Moses).

She didn't spend as long trying to convince me that Moses was used by God to gather people together. This story was much more obvious, so she made her talking points and jumped right into Matthew 24:45 "Who really is the faithful slave..." She told me to read verses 45-47, but I kept reading about the evil slave... she stopped me before I finished the passage. I made a couple of observations.

First of all, this is a parable, not a prophecy. If you look at everything surrounding this parable, you will see several examples where Jesus is describing how his true followers will be recognized.
Who is this evil slave? Can we talk about that (question ignored... topic divereted)
Jesus did not say, "I will appoint a faithful slave sometime later, during the time of the end..." This slave he mentions has already been "appointed."

I had another question about the 10 virgins and the 3 servants that are described in the next examples, but I never got a chance to ask about them... She quickly jumped into Acts and talked about Paul. She was on a mission, and that was to lay out her outline of the evidence of how Jehovah uses specific men throughout time, to "give people food at the right time."

She asked me what "meat in due season" or "food at the right time" probably means...? I said, "Well, since this is a parable, it actually COULD be literal food... Jesus is describing how his true followers are going to act."

After talking about Paul and then reading the last passage of Matthew and Revelation (don't add to this book, don't take away from this book), she came to the conclusion that since all the churches are teaching things that are NOT in the bible, they are not teaching the truth. She showed me a quote from Jesus about being "of the truth," as if that somehow identified JW's as the chosen ones.

The whole presentation was full of assumptions and made a pretty weak argument, since I never agreed that a specific "slave" had been identified by Jesus. I also never conceded that the JW's have the exclusive rights to the truth or to being God's chosen people. I asked her a few times if it was possible for someone who was not a JW to be approved or chosen by God. She never gave me a straight answer... EVERY question I asked was answered with another question! Miss W did interject once and made the comment that Jehovah sees the heart, and that "they will be given the chance." I said, "Do you mean given the chance to become a Jehovah's Witness?" Again, no answer... another misdirecting question or assumption.

She did some real mental gymnastics while talking to me and herself (they both did, but Miss K was the main speaker at the table). I noticed that she was almost debating with herself a few times... It was fascinating and very sad, really. It went something like this:

She would make a statement, such as how "JW's always follow the bible and they teach the truth." Then, "When there are times that the truth contains some things we realize are false, we make allow ourselves adjustments"... "Of course, there are times when changes are made as we examine the bible further and realize we have to make adjustments to what we believe." and wrapped up with "At least we don't just keep following our old teachings and beliefs, even after we realize they are wrong."

Not wanting to keep changing the subject, I made a note to myself, that this argument I witnessed her going through at least 4 times during her presentation, seemed to be a direct contradiction to her claim that JW's never added or changed the bible.

After she had read those verses in Matthew and Revelation, I did say, "What about the changes in your NEW New World Translation?? There have been words added and ommitted." This got both of them aggitated.

Miss K used her practiced tactic... EVERY time I asked a question or had any objection, she would try to get me to give her a specific example, sometimes adding, "I don't know what you are trying to say... (implying that I had some agenda or specific attack planned)."
Miss W got immediately defensive, proclaiming that "NO meanings have been changed. Only the language!" Miss W was very defensive whenever I would make a comment. I couldn't tell if she was accompanying Miss K unwillingly, just to get her hours, or if she was supposed to be playing "bad cop." I didn't engage her very much... she reminded me a lot of my mom, who is also very stubborn.

So they made some claims about how JW's have the only truth, asked me if I thought that it made sense that someone would have to be teaching the truth, since we are DEFINITELY in the time of the end. "Look at the signs! Jesus said it would be bad, isn't the world SOOO Bad!!??" I did not concede that things were worse now, than when my grandmother was growing up.

Time did finally run out, when my husband called for us to go and pick him up from work. As they were leaving, Miss K, ONCE AGAIN, asked me to give her a SPECIFIC question to research so we could talk about it next week. I said, "You still have not really covered the faithful and discreet slave, and that is the foundation of your entire religion..." She had clearly spent a long time laying out this outline and evidence that the JW's are following the FDS appointed by Jesus. I don't feel like she ever got to the point, or the conclusion, of her argument. I felt so cheated!

She said... (hahahaha)... "Let's just put that on the shelf for now." OMG I thought, you are kidding me! As if she was saying, "I don't have to answer that question... just give me one I CAN answer."

Miss W added, along with the request for a specific topic or doctrine in question, "WE need to do our research too... we don't just want to show up unprepared to answer your question and help you!"

I told her, "Let me think about it and get back to you."

She evidently wants me to "pick" from some of their core doctrines, you know, the ones that PROVE they are "of the truth," and everyone else is in a lie:

The trinity, hellfire, existence of the immortal soul, etc...

I have a couple of questions that I do plan to ask, from comments made by them during our conversation yesterday, but I know they will want a main topic...

16

Ding Dong . . .

by ABibleStudent in

h'mmm, it is almost 11:00 am on a wednesday.

i wonder if it is a jw.. to the best of my knowledge the following happened, but i did get a little excited during our intial conversation and what transpired later so i may not be recounting the facts correctly.. i went downstairs with my trusty sharpie in my pocket to answer the door.

at the door there was an older (~75 year-old) man in a suit and appeared to be in good health.

Faithful Witness

Robert: Thanks for sharing your experience. It was nice of you to pick up the litera-trash... pretty rude really, for them to run around scattering papers in the wind like that. What lousy advertising that is for an organization that claims to be living the good Christian life. Litterbugs, is what they are!

I had my elderette visit me today, and I can REALLY relate to the frustration of preparing yourself to talk logically with someone... only to end up getting nowhere and wasting 3 hours of your day watching them do mental gymnastics.

I agree with Frazzled UBM: " I think it is a function of the way they talk over you and change the subject as soon as you start to make any headway."

I will give an account of my "conversation" when I get a chance. Good effort!